Suggestions Please!!! I want to make a Dark Strong beer.
  • Hey everyone. For a while now I've been doing the same recipe over and over to try and hone my craft. Well, I am waiting on a shipment from the states, so i'm gonna take a break and I want to make something dark and strong. An imperial stout, porter, red or amber. But it has to be Ingredients I can order and get by this weekend, preferably grains I can get from Rob. All grain. Any suggestions?
  • It doesn't have to be any of the above mentioned styles, anything dark and strong. Have i said dark and strong enough times? Also does anyone know where I can get rolled oats here? or flaked barley? P.S. I'm mashing in my boil pot, so i may have to add sugar to bump the alcohol... again... suggestions on amounts? when to add? I'm still new to all grain.
  • wamillewamille
    99.00 KarmaSend wamille a Message Accepted Answer
    BeerKid... you ever made a Black IPA... aka Cascadian Dark Ale (CDA)? You'd need 2-row malt, a bit of Crystal/Caramunich, and a touch of roasted barley (couple ounces) and some Carafa II or III. I think Rob and/or Beerschool should have those grains. The fun part about this beer is the addition of at least five or six ounces of hops to the mix. Talk about flavor! I can provide a recipe for this beer if you like... assuming you can get these grains and have some good C-hops (Cascade, Centennial, Chinook, or Columbus). Cheers, Bill
  • gordsellargordsellar
    338.00 KarmaSend gordsellar a Message Accepted Answer
    There's another way to get more sugars into your brew with a limited mash tun, and that is the doble-doble method. (Another extinct brewing technique.) Basically, you mash some grain, and then use the runoff to mash-in more grain in the same tun, after sparging thoroughly. You can get to pretty high gravities using this method, though I'd recommend hot sparge water and slow batch sparges to maximize efficiency and avoiding leaving a bunch of extracted sugars in the second mash.

    As for black IPA, it's a good option if you like hops. (And don't forget the orange zest or peel, which was a nice addition to the Black IPA for the Beer Fest.)

    If you don't have the necessary hops, or want something less hoppy (crazy, I know, but) another brew you could try is a nice dark barleywine. In that case, adding some sugars (or other highly fermentable adjuncts) is a good idea. I recommend molasses, Demerara sugar, honey, those Indian "gur" sugars they have at the Foreign Food Mart in Itaewon... the barleywine I have in secondary now (about to bottle) was made with molasses and some other stuff and smells and tastes divine, but you need to expect a long aging period. (And I'd oxygenate it generously, as well as adding several packs of yeast; I used S-04 to good results.) You's want similar things to what Bill suggests, but less carafa (let the molasses darken it up for you). And of course it needs longer aging, though I bet my Barleywine would be drinkable now, only a few months old.

    If you had more time, I'd recommend a Belgian Dubbel or Quad as another less-hoppy option, but those are impossible without a good yeast (T-58?) and usually shine more with other specialty grains or adjuncts...

    I don't think we can get roast barley domestically; you can make some, but you need to wait a week before using it. (Nasty volatiles.) And unless you're ordering from abroad, you will substitute Pilsner Malt for 2-row.
  • The Black IPAs (CDAs) I tried at the beer fest were mighty tasty.
  • Wamille, I'd be happy to have the recipe! I'd love to do that first, but I don't have access to the roasted. I might give the barley-wine idea a try. I think I might go with honey, my wife LOVES mead. How much honey do you think I should add for a 5 gallon batch? just keep testing the gravity till it hits 1.1? I've never done higher gravity beers except from extract before. Thanks for everything guys. I'll order the grains tonight, I'm thinking 3Kg pilsner and 250g caramunich and 250 of carafa II. It'll be an experiment i guess. I'll be doing a hop crazy beer when my shipment from the states gets here with an oz of Mt. Hood, for this one i think i'll order 1 oz of columbus for some punch and 1 oz cascade for aroma... what do you think? Will it work out?
  • TBK... glad to see you're excited about making beer. Regarding the use of honey, I've used 5-lbs before (2.6kg roughly) in a beer I made a few years back... and recently half that much in a Barleywine (my first). With regards to using honey in your beer, what do you want out of this beer... more Barleywine (rich, malty, robust) or mead (light, sparkling, dry)? Also, are you doing all-grain or a mixture of grains and extract (partial mash)? If you're doing all-grain, you don't have near enough grain for a Barleywine. The 5-gallon barleywine I made had over 24 pounds of grain and 2.5 lbs of honey in it. It checked in at 1.095 OG. Which also leads me to another point... are you sure you wanna tackle a big beer like a Barleywine? They are fairly complex and require a lot of time to ferment. As temps are getting warmer, you might wanna shoot for a beer in the 1.055 range. Just some quick thoughts before I roll out the door for work. If you have anymore questions or comments, feel free to ask. Cheers, Bill
  • I would be careful making a big beer as the weather is getting warmer. You need to ensure you can keep your fermentation in the mid to high 60sF depending on the yeast strain you choose. Otherwise you might be stuck with 5 gallons of not very pleasant, hangover inducing imperial something. Why not a nice dark 30 IBU braggot mead? Half stout, half honey?
  • @wamille: Thank you for your words of warning. I have an entryway that seems to stay around 3-4C cooler than my house and the s-04 that gordsellar reccomended says it does well between 20 and 24. I think i'll take your advice though and aim lighter... maybe 1.06-8. I've managed to wring 1.05 our of my 5 gallon pot before but i can't really fit much more grain in there. If I do order more do you think it should be pilsner? or would a substantial amount of the caramunich make it tastier? This is my first time experimenting with all grain.
    @Kunkemonster: That would be amazing!!! How do i go about it? I'll start researching it myself, but any pointers within the limitations of korean supply options would be much appreciated. I'd love to do that next because even with the entryway I don't think i'll be able to keep my temps below 24 a month hence unless my landlord gets back to me about using the basement.
    Thanks everyone for all the words of wisdom!
  • I made a braggot this winter, just made a simple 1.050 25 IBU pale ale and added 5 pounds of honey into the boil pot after flame out. That's it, just make sure you aerate plenty, pitch enough healthy yeast, and control the fermentation temp. If you read about meads they will say they take months to complete. I had mine finish in 3 weeks, I added yeast nutrients and degassed for the first 3 days of fermentation. With a stout braggot, yeast nutrients shouldn't be too much of a concern, but I still recommend the dagassing.

    I would try and get access to that basement if you can, it will be worth the effort. You could always do a hill billy swamp cooler by filling a tub with cold water and swap out frozen 1 liter PET bottles a few times a day if you can't.
  • What yeast should i use for the braggot? I'm going to start just using a wet towel and a fan if it gets to be too hot soon, but i think I've got another month in my entry way. I've never done an all grain stout. anyone have any input on which grains (that are available here) i should use to get something stoutish? As far as degassing, i hate the idea of taking the cover off my brew and possibly introducing bacteria, but from what I've read, that's what allows you to speed up the process. how did you avoid contamination when degassing?
  • TBK... here's the recipe we just used for the Cascadian Dark Ale for the Spring Beer Festival if you are thinking of making one (well, not this one exactly... I think we had to deviate from it a bit):

    7 lbs 2-Row
    7 lbs Munich
    2 lbs Rye
    .5 lbs Crystal 40L
    .5 lbs Carafa II
    .25 lbs Black Patent
    .25 lbs Roasted Barley
    .5 lbs Corn Sugar

    2 oz. Chinook 60-min (leaf)
    2 oz. Amarillo 30-min (pellet)
    1 oz. Simcoe 20-min (leaf)
    1 oz. Simcoe 15-min (pellet)
    1 tablet Whirfloc 15-min
    1 oz. Simcoe 10-min (pellet)
    1/2 tsp. Yeast Nutrient 10-min (reconstituted in about 4 oz warm water)
    2 oz. Simcoe Flameout (pellet)
    .5 oz Bitter Orange Peel

    I used Wyeast 1450 (Denny's Favorite), but this one is probably best with something a bit cleaner... maybe a WLP-001 or SA-05.

    I mashed at 152F... strike water was 170F... the mash volume was just under 5-gallons. And I added 1 teaspoon of gypsum to the mash and boil kettle.

    OG 1.072
    FG 1.018... was actually lower, that was the gravity I kegged the beer. It might've gone done a few more points.

    I know some of the ingredients might be hard to come by. However, you can always replace the rye with some wheat or munich. And the corn sugar... well, that was meant to dry it out a bit... didn't seem to work... haha.

    Cheers,
    Bill
  • Wow, that looks spectacular!! I was devastated to miss the festival, this isn't helping. I am on a strict budget and I decided I'd rather brew 3 more batches than come and have one afternoon of great beers. My budget should be doing a bit better in the future. will there be any more similar events? Thanks for the recipe and I hope i get another chance to meet you all!
  • The CDA was really good, but I doubt you can get half of those ingredients in Korea, and not by this weekend. :( We usually have a meetup every month or two, keep an eye out here and on Facebook.

    WLP 001 or S05 will work fine, even an English strain would work, anything fairly neutral. Just sanitize your device very well, I used my big stainless steal brewing spoon, pop the lid and stir like crazy for a minute. You need to be careful not to introduce much oxygen, so don't splash. During the first few days of fermentation there should be a thick CO2 blanket covering the beer, that should force out any wild yeast. Just try and keep things as sanitary as you can and work quickly.
  • Awesome. So... tomorrow I'm going to experiment and the true Braggot will wait for next time. Tomorrow I'm thinking...3kg of pilsner, .5kg caramunich and .25kg of carafa II (should i go with a full .5?) Then i'll bring the gravity up a bit with maybe 1kg of Honey. I had to go with Galena Hops for punch because they were out of Columbus and I wanted the highest AAs I could get. Does anyone have experience with galena? For aroma I'll drop some cascade in 1 min before boil stop. 28g of each hop (i want more but i'm on a budget and i've got an Oz coming soon). I'll be using the S04 yeast, I got two packets anticipating a heavier beer... do you think I should still use both? or will one packet do fine for a beer between 1.06 and 1.08?

    I've really enjoyed all of your responses. This is a great way to learn, I hope you don't mind my incessant questions.
  • If your yeast is fairly new and you rehydrate it one pack should be fine. Why not get a few pounds of hops online instead of ordering ounces at a time?
  • sorry... I meant pound... I've got a pound on the way... all this gram talk has me confused.
  • I made a braggot this winter, just made a simple 1.050 25 IBU pale ale and added 5 pounds of honey into the boil pot after flame out.



    Ha, sounds like my "low-ABV" braggot, which is ready for bottling now. (Racked it to secondary but it never really cleared. I blame the hops.) Mine might be a little milder, I think the wort portion clocked in at 1.035 or 1.040, and the honey was a 2.3 kg pack...

    What yeast should i use for the braggot? ... how did you avoid contamination when degassing?



    I haven't done degassing, but I presume you just sterilize/sanitize your stirring instrument and then get it done as quickly but non-disruptively as possible. You're trying not to oxygenate your wort; by the time you're degassing, there may well be enough alcohol to help fend off infections. Don't panic, just be slow and careful and clean.

    As for yeast, whatever you like! The braggot I have in secondary right now was made with WLP001 but I contemplated using a Belgian yeast (Trappist or Saison) or even a Kolsch yeast. I'd pick something for which the temperature is suitable. (I used WLP001 mainly because I wanted a fermentation that got out of the way of the malt, honey, and hop flavors so I could see how they worked together.) You seem to be planning to use S-04, and that sounds fine to me...
  • Brewed it on Saturday, its still bubbling. I added ~1kg honey to it and the gravity was just at the 1.06 line before I pitched and capped it. I've been doing 90 minute mash times. I put all the grains in together at the beginning then got distracted and it sat for a full 2 hours right around 67c, its BLACK. Smelled amazing and the wort tasted DIVINE. Can't wait to see how it turns out!
  • Has anyone ever used Agave instead of honey before. I found it at mycostcokorea.com for $12.60 for 2 666g containers. Doing the math that's $25.20 for 2.6kg which is cheaper than any honey I have found. Any insights? Anyone have experience with fermenting Agave? Might make this my next experiment.
  • I believe Gord has done some stuff with it.
  • Yup. Pale agave is just fermentable, no flavor contribution and very little color, but blue agave does add something in my experience... a little color and this indescribable but lovely faint flavor. (I used it in a Saison, and will be doing so again this summer.) It didn't take much -- a small bottle or two made a noticeable effect on the beer.
  • Sweet! I think I'm going to do the exact same dark beer again only with the agave instead, that way I can really isolate the differences.
  • Cool... though my impression is the contribution is delicate and might shine through more in a lower-ABV, less-roasty sort of beer... But I'd love to hear your results with the blue agave...