French vs. Belgian Saison Yeast (Wyeast 3711/3724)
  • I remember a few people being interested in Saison yeasts, so I thought I'd share my preliminary results (while I'll update once the beers are bottled and conditioned) in a comparison between two popular Belgian Saison yeasts.



    I've been brewing Saisons with Wyeast 3724, which is supposed to be the Belgian Saison yeast used by Saison Dupont... or, at least, was what the strain was when Wyeast got the sample. This is the mutant yeast, possibly (according to Jeff Sparrow) a mutated wine yeast or something. It's famous for stalling out if it's not warm enough, and warm for this brew is a range of 25-35 degrees Celsius (ie. 77-95F). In fact, if you have the temp too low, the yeast stalls out (at spots like 1.035 or something like that, or somewhere in the 1.020s, until you warm it up, and even then, sometimes, it takes a while. Apparently Saison Dupont runs the fermentation in their brewery at the very top end of the temp range: 3 days flat at 35C (95F).



    I should note, I haven't had this problem with this yeast; I first used it on a hot ondol floor in winter, in a cupboard that was about 32C or so. I'm on the 4th generation now, and as I've read, by that point it's a beast and chews through anything quickly.



    When I got a sample of French Saison yeast, Wyeast 3711, from Kunkemonster, I figured I would like to try a side-by-side. Well, not literally side-by-side, since the top end temperature on the French Saison yeast is right at the bottom end of the Belgian Saison.



    So I brewed up something like 45 gallons of wort. The recipe (hops and grain bill) are here. (It's a bit kitchen-sinky, but artisanal Saisons sometimes do use a more complex grist, while the commercial ones use a much simpler grist, sometimes even just Pilsner malt. I threw in the rye for the spiciness, the special B for a touch of raisin, and the blue agave for a touch of flavor.)



    Then I put approximately half of the wort in one bucket, and the other half in the other, pitched the yeasts, and then put the French Saison bucket in my living room, under the air conditioner, and the Belgian one out in the hot common room (average temp is about 32C during the first few days of fermentation), and left them for a couple of weeks. The Belgian, while fermenting, gave off a fruity aroma, but the French Saison was striking in that the aroma it gave off while fermenting at the top of its range was pure bubblegum for a few days.



    (We were quite excited by that, hoping a slight touch of that "off-flavor" might survive in a small, small amount. I've had one beer that had some bubblegum aroma and a tiny touch of it in the flavor -- I think it was a properly aged bottle of Orval, and it was remarkable. (Because not-overwhelming... too much bubblegum WOULD be an off flavor, but a touch is just interesting.)



    Anyhow, the preliminary results -- objective and subjective -- are as follows:



    OG: 1.052 (undershot target by 1.002 points only...)



    FG:

    1.003 for the French Saison yeast (3711) -- 6.5%

    1.004 for the Belgian Saison yeast (3724) -- 6.4%



    (Those might creep lower: I have consistently gotten 1.002 or lower in the Belgian Saisons -- with adjunct of 10% or more -- and I will probably leave them in the bucket a bit longer. Then again, I've kegged all the Saisons I've done to date, and will be bottle-conditioning these, so I've no idea how the yeast will perform for bottle-carbonation and how low the final gravity will end up. As before, I'll have them at the same temperatures as primary fermentation until carbonation is complete.)



    As for subjective results, both Jihyun and I find the French Saison zingier and fruitier, and the Belgian a little less fruity but relatively the same for spiciness. I'm surprised, as I expected the Belgian to outperform the French given the higher temp and so on. Both are likely going to be very good-tasting beers, but despite my good experience with the Belgian, I'm considering the French carefully and, all things being equal, I might well be inclined to prefer the French for Saisons from now on.



    (Though when brewing in summer -- or the winter with an ondol flooring system turned on -- the Belgian has the advantage of dealing with higher temps better... and experienced brewers of Saison claim the Belgian flavor profile is unparalleled when the temp control is just right.)



    I'd love to throw some lambic blend into some of each at bottling time, to see how some Brett funk would complexify such an already-dry beer. (I figure, like Orval, one could add the yeast at bottling time without fear of bottle bombs -- there's so little sugar left in the beer, after all.) However, that would make harvesting the yeast harder, unless I do a secondary, and I'm not planning on it. I guess I could do a starter for the lambic blend and then inoculate half the bottles instead, but likely I just won't bother -- use the Lambic blend packs to inoculate other things, like the two old ales (Jihyun's and mine) that we already have going.
  • I brewed a saison too, and it's finally ready to drink. I used the basic Belgian Saison 1 from Whitelabs, and made a starter with 1l of 1.040 DME. Started the temp low, about 65F with ice and a water bath then let it ramp up to room temp by pulling it out and just letting it get up as high as it wanted, I also tossed about 1 and a third cups of sugar in after a week to push the yeast to dry it out as far as it would go. It was hitting the high 70s in temp most days and low 80s on a few days The final gravity was way down, around 1.002-.005. I don't trust my hydrometer enough to say what it really is, but it's a good 5.5% ABV at least.



    Results? Delicious. Its a light, dry, lemony beer with a good hop sweetness and a nice floral aroma. Perfect for summer drinking. No fusel alcohols and no banana at all, but a light peppery bite. Exactly what I was hoping for. I really want you guys to try it, as I don't think I've ever had a saison and don't know how close I got to the right style. Maybe in October when I get back we can meet up and give it a taste, but I think some hop taste will fall out by then. I will be brewing this one again next summer and probably every summer to come. I was nervous about getting nail polish remover or banana/bubble gum, but this was just right. Next year? DRY HOP, but not too much. I love the malt and fermentation characteristics and don't want to drown them out.



    I'd love to taste your experiments. Sounds like you got a wild recipe. Rye is a cool idea for this, I'd use it if I had some. Keep us apprised!
  • Oats,



    Which hop did you use? Just curious. Did the lemony character come from the yeast, you figure?



    I'd love to try some, when you're back! My various Saisons (the two I'll be bottling later this week, and the one I kegged months ago) should be ready for sharing. Hell, if anyone else is interested, we could do some kind of Saison Challenge for October... though summer is the time to brew these buggers! Hell I may brew another batch or two of Saison before October... it's certainly a tempting idea! (Just not sure I can work through my kegs fast enough to do that... I don't have enough friends in my neighborhood who drink beer, or at least who drink enough to help kill kegs of the stuff.) :)



    The rye does give the recipe something nice -- it did the same for the Abbey Singel I brewed up a few months ago and just sampled on the weekend -- a pretty low-ABV table beer at 4.8%, it turned out not bad in the flavor department, if not as fruity as I'd hoped. Raw wheat is pretty nice too, in a Saison, at about 5% or so and if you don't mind cereal mashing. (Or can get torrefied, which doesn't need it.) I think Saison's a "style" where anything goes, really -- so you can experiment with all kinds of grains and adjuncts, with all kinds of complex grists or much simpler ones, as you like. And it still comes out Saison.



    (The only bad batch I've had was one where I threw a kilo of dried, rehydrated figs in at flameout; no idea what, but they seemed to contribute a squid-like flavor. I was worried it was the agave nectar, but I've used agave to sweeten other things with no issues.)



    I'm likely to have more Saisons on hand by October -- I could just brew these all the time and be happy, except of course that Belgian Tripels and Dubbels beckon... and of course Jihyun would step in and remind me that her favorite so far is my Northern Brown, followed close behind by the ESB and her own stout.



    But I'm think of maybe brewing up a slightly soured one (via sour mash, like the Berliner Weisse some of you tried at the last Fermentation Celebration, but less intense)... souring was apparently common in traditional Saisons, and I'm curious how the sour and the fruity and the peppery play together. I'll also probably spike a half-keg with Brett as well, though that'll take months to actually register in the flavor profile. Gotta drink (or bottle) the other half of the keg first though... and gotta finish the ESB I have on tap first!
  • Well, and update: I wanted to bottle both Saisons today, but it seems one will have to wait till tomorrow.



    In any case, the French Saison (3711) is bottled -- I left it in primary until now, figuring I could see how dry it would get. The answer is:





    French Saison (Wyeast 3711) gravity sample. by mrgord, on Flickr



    Yes, that is 1.000. That is, of course,partly due to the agave syrup I added, but even so, that adjunct was only 10% of the fermentables. I guess the overnight mash (at a pretty steady, low-end temp) helped too. I hope I added enough sugar to get a good mouthfeel for something that thinned out. I guess we'll just have to see!



    The sample was insanely fruity; not so much spice at the moment, but we'll see if that comes out a bit during refermentation/conditioning in the bottle. Looking forward to trying ti carbed up, as well as comparing this one to the Belgian yeast half of the batch.



    Beautiful yeast. Kunkemonster, thanks for giving me that sample!



    I'll update on the 3724 when I get it bottled, probably tomorrow or Monday night, and I'll try bring some samples to the 15-Minute Challenge meetup as well.
  • Just took a sample on the 3724, though I probably won't be bottling it till tomorrow or Monday, depending on scheduling and time. (They "forgot" to tell the foreign instructors that classes start on the 29th, instead of (as usual) on the 1st of September, which just knocked a few days I thought were free right off my schedule.)



    Anyway, I can say that the 3724 had a much less pleasant finish out of the sampling tube. The 3724 is fruity, too, but I'm not sure whether I ended up with fusels, or the sample is just yeasty, or what; it tastes slightly more harsh, and a tiny bit more "acidic" (or, maybe "zingy" is a better word, as it isn't entirely unpleasant) as well. There's definitely more CO2 and also more trub in the bucket, so either of those may have played a part in the qualities I'm detecting.



    I'm hoping once it's carbed, bottle-conditioned, and chilled, that some of the harshness will fade; I've heard some people say the 3724 needs more time in the bottle, though I can't remember how the samples tasted on batches made (earlier generations of) this same yeast.



    (Note, I fermented the 3724 at a higher temp (near the top end of its temp range) and while the room was around 29-30C, the fermentation may have bumped up over 35C inside the bucket at times. I don't think so, but it's possible. The samples I took occasionally were right around 34C, which is well within the range, and like I said, I've fermented it at higher temps before with no problem. Anyway... I guess we'll see...)



    EDIT: Oops, the 3724 also fermented down to 1.001 or so. (Hard to tell... some of that zing I noticed is CO2 locked into the beer itself, more apparent in the 3724, so I suspect it may be 1.002, which I've consistently gotten with this yeast. So, so far, I'd say the 3711 seems to both ferment drier (under the right conditions, ie. ~25C and a long primary) and to be both a little fruitier. I'm not sure about spiciness... I suspect there's more in the 3724, but maybe your opinions can clarify.



    Figure next time I'd like to split a 10 gallon batch into ten separate jugs, each with a different yeast variation: 3711 vs. 3724 vs. 3711+lacto vs. 3724 + lacto vs. 3711 + pedio vs. 3724 + pedio, plus variations with Brett B, and blend of Brett subspecies. Long experiment, though: something in the six month range, and it'd be tough to compare, I suppose. (The lacto and pedio would sour soon, the Brett would take a goodly long time to funk it up, and so on...) Still... :)
  • Glad you like the 3711 yeast, I plan on picking up a pack every summer. It makes a wonderfully dry crisp summer beer. I think the favorite recipe I made with it was the 4.5% petite saison.
  • Yeah, I was thinking of doing a petite Saison next with it... not next as in my next batch (that's a Cali. Common) but as my next Saison... thanks again, man! And, since you'll be at the 15-minute challenge tasting, you can compare the beers (youngish, mind, but probably it'll still give an idea of the comparison).



    (Gotta bottle the Belgian one tomorrow... was busy tonight.)
  • So I opened up the bucket on the half of the batch fermented on Belgian Saison yeast, and...





    photo by mrgord, on Flickr



    That's worrying, and ugly, yeah, though I knew (when a little water from the wort chiller drainage tube -- which had been in the kitchen sink -- dripped into it, post-boil) that infection was a possibility. (I didn't want to restart the boil and throw the bitterness out of whack, but I think if something like that happens again, I might go ahead and boil again for five minutes, and let it cool slowly.)



    Whatever it is, it had to have gotten into the bucket right at the start, since I haven't opened it since. But the brew isn't sour, vinegary, or funky; when I tried some at room temp, it had a slightly vinous flavor to it, which was actually kind of nice, but also a somewhat odd mouthfeel/aftertaste which, prior to opening the bucket, I attributed (in samples taken from the spigot) to the (temporary) slightly fusely effect some people get using this yeast when the beer is green.



    Chilled, it's not at all vinous, but also not very fruity -- the odd aftertaste (and after-mouthfeel, especially) is less pronounced too, but still present. I'll let it warm some and try. I went ahead and bottled it anyway, figuring I could just dump and bleach the bottles if it turns out weird, but that it might turn out okay in the end.



    I'm thinking it might be some kind of Brett infection, given the lack of a distinct off-flavor; I'm hoping the Saison yeast ate up all the sugar in time, and the Brett is left with almost nothing to munch on; maybe I'll get a faint funk to the beer if I age it some. I'm hoping that's all I get!
  • I've had that on several of my beers, I wouldn't be worried...can't work out what it's from but I've never noticed any extreme off-flavor or funk because of it.
  • I've seen it on one other beer, about which I freaked out, but which turned out to be fine. (The hot pepper beer, if you remember.) Of course, that cropped up after I put lemongrass in for a ridiculous length of time.



    Still, leery about repitching the yeast from it. I think I'll try a starter, but since I have one more jar of an earlier generation of the same yeast, I may just dump it and reculture a few jars' worth from the clean sample.
  • Dax is right, the weird stuff didn't seem to have any bad effect on the beer itself. I couldn't wait and just cracked a bottle, the carbonation is too low (sigh, but maybe it's not done yet -- it pours a little thick now, so I'm guessing the yeast is grouchy about the low temps right now) and the beer is still very green...



    ...but good grief, both these yeasts are just nuts in terms of flavor profile... Fruit, fruit, fruit. There's a strong aroma, too, though I can't quite place it. I'd have imagined either some kind of crazy fruit addition, or hopping, or something, if I didn't know better.



    I like both beers, though we'll see which one I prefer when it ages out... Will try to remember to chill and bring a big bottle of each to our 15 Minute meetup, as I'd be interested in opinions. :)



    And yeah, I think I'll have to brew up some kind of parti-gyle with a Belgian Golden Strong Ale off the first runnings, and a Petite Saison off the second runnings. No extra malts, no spices, just Pilsner malt and the magical mutant yeast, and see what it does...
  • Digging this thread up...so I have some fresh packs of both WYeast 3711 and 3724 (French and Belgian) and I made some small 3 gallon petite Saisons batches with them a few weeks ago, just to get them going. I plan on harvesting the yeast this weekend (and giving out some yeast cakes), but for my next Saison, a dark molasses Saison I'm thinking about blending both yeast - to get the best of both, any thoughts as to why I shouldn't? Since most flavor compounds are created in the first 72 hours, and you shouldn't need 95F for the Belgian yeast, I figure why not blend them.
  • Going to be taking packs of both of these with my to Thailand. I'm guessing I'm going to be using the Belgian one most of the time. In fact I can't really see myself brewing anything else out there, I'm too lazy to mess around with swamp coolers, and too cheap to buy a refrigerator for brewing.

    I'd be interested to hear how a blend turns out, it sounds like a reasonable idea.
  • I haven't tried blending yet but was thinking of trying it. I like them both, but prefer the Belgian... though it *needs* high temps (at least 87-90 to really shine, in my opinion. (I've used it at a lower temp and it was okay, but there was less character.) 95 isn't necessary, but it doesn't necessarily hurt.

    Going to be using French Saison yeast in one of the brews I make with my students, this Sunday... probably WLP001 for the other.